
“We need to think not only about what is the right, but about what is good. How can business build something that is actually good. We need to understand how the right and the good can work together.” – Ed Freeman

OUR BIG THANKS GO TO ALL OUR PARTICIPANTS: ED FREEMAN, ALAN WATKINS, FRANK MARTELA, JANE DUTTON, MONICA WORLINE, LUIGINO BRUNI, MATS ALVESSON, AXEL HONNETH, SCOTT PARSONS, MANFRED KETS DE VRIES, GIANPIERO PETRIGLIERI, MIKE O’DONNELL, GERT BIESTA AND MORE - thank you all very much for sharing your personal wisdom!
Jump directly to the recordings (available once published)
NOW AVAILABLE: The recording & some of our preferred quotes
You can find the full transcript of the video at the bottom. Please note it is automatically generated and hence will contain spelling mistakes.

Keywords: stakeholder theory, CSR, stakeholder capitalism, common good, business ethics, care ethics, pragmatism, ethical leadership, just capitalism, Rorty, Dewey, positivism, empiricism, sociotechnical systems, network organisations
Other resources mentioned during the interview

How to lead in a world where leadership extends to a whole range of stakeholders inside and outside an organization
by Nicola Pless (Editor), Thomas Maak (Editor)

The Power of And offers a new narrative about the nature of business, revealing the focus on responsibility and ethics that unites today’s most influential ideas and companies.
by R. Edward Freeman (Author), Bidhan L. Parmar (Author), Kirsten Martin (Author)

Business can be understood as a system of how we create value for stakeholders. This worldview connects business and capitalism with ethics once and for all.
by R. Edward Freeman (Author)

This book examines the body of research related to Stakeholder Theory and assesses its relevance for our understanding of modern business.
by R. Edward Freeman (Author)

This book offers a case-study approach to stakeholder theory that moves beyond theoretical analysis to the applied.
by R. Edward Freeman (Editor), Johanna Kujala (Editor), Sybille Sachs (Editor)

This book presents a number of tools that managers can use to implement stakeholder thinking, better understand stakeholders and create value with and for them.
by R. Edward Freeman (Author), Jeffery S. Harrison (Author), Stelios Zyglidopoulos (Author)

This book presents a method that might be called an Aristotelian common-sense approach to ethical decision making.
by Ronald Duska (Author), Norman E. Bowie (Editor), Patricia H. Werhane (Editor)

The Blackwell Guide to Business Ethics acquaints the reader with theoretical and pedagogical ethical issues in the practice of business
Norman E. Bowie

Managing for Stakeholders helps leaders develop a mindset that asks the Value Creation Question: How can we create as much value as possible for all of our stakeholders?
by R Edward Freeman (Author), Jeffrey S Harrison (Author), Andrew C Wicks (Author)

Although it is on occasion useful to distinguish between factual claims and value judgments, it positively harmful when identified with a dichotomy between objective and purely "subjective."
by Hilary Putnam (Author)

In A Theory of Justice Rawls assumed a "well-ordered society". Now Rawls asks how a just society can live in concord when divided by reasonable but incompatible doctrines?
by John Rawls (Author)

Marking a new stage in the evolution of his thought, Rorty’s final masterwork identifies anti-authoritarianism as the principal impulse and virtue of pragmatism.
by Richard Rorty (Author)

The best professionals rely less on formulas learned in graduate school than on the kind of improvisation learned in practice.
by Donald A. Schön (Author)

Plato brought a richness and complexity to common ideas about the nature and purpose of leadership. Rather than attempting to give a single 'one-size-fits-all' definition, his strategy was to break it into its different strands.
by Dominic Scott (Author), R. Edward Freeman (Author)

In Development as Freedom Amartya Sen explains how in a world of unprecedented increase in overall opulence millions of people living in the Third World are still unfree.
by Amartya Sen (Author)

This book is about humanizing business. The volume travels outside the world of business to explore what Humanities – such as Philosophy, History, Literature, Creative Arts, and Cultural Studies – can offer to business.
by Michel Dion (Editor), R. Edward Freeman (Editor), Sergiy D. Dmytriyev (Editor)

Standing at the crossroads of psychology and religion, this catalyzing work applied the scientific method to a field abounding in abstract theory.
by William James (Author), Martin E Marty (Introduction, Editor)

If you have philosophical inclinations and want a good workout, this conscientious scrutiny of moral assumptions and expressions will be most rewarding.
by Alan Donagan (Author)

In our interview, we examine both theoretical bases and practical implications of a pragmatic “stakeholder approach” to business ethics, in contrast to CSR and other models. We examine the need to develop a better narrative for business and discuss how a new purpose and strategy can be effectively operationalised. We also discuss the development of ethical leadership and the role of business schools. What resultated was a truly brilliant and vibrant conversation.
NOW AVAILABLE: The recording & some of our preferred quotes
You can find the full transcript of the video at the bottom. Please note it is automatically generated and hence will contain spelling mistakes.

Keywords: spiral dynamics, organisational change, wisdom, wisdom of the crowds, democracy, teal, holacracy, sociocracy, crowdocracy, leadership development, vertical development, 4D Leadership, moral development
Some diagrams from Alan's books that illustrate the concepts mentioned during the interview. Many thanks to Jack Watkins for having kindly provided these!
The 4D Leadership Framework
The LMP (Leadership Maturity Profile) Model
Waves of HR from 1990 to 2040
Evolution towards Crowdocracy
The Innovation Funnel
Transcendence vs Detachment
Step Change Wheel
Connecting the interview with other dialogues
We are mentioning several challenges to the concept of "Spiral Dynamics" and also our previous work on "Why Teal is Wrong". Below further information and selected critical perspectives - always in the spirit of enhancing our capacity for critical thinking...

We need to change our view of change and see it for the opportunity it really is. Step Change: The Leader’s Journey helps leaders to become gifted and skilful at moving through the change process
by Alan Watkins (Author)

Wicked & Wise is the compelling launch title in a groundbreaking new series exploring hotly debated issues facing the planet and its people, and offering unique ways to tackle seemingly intractable social and cultural challenges.
by Alan Watkins (Author), Ken Wilber (Author)

Most leaders are operating nowhere near their optimal level of performance. In this book, Dr Alan Watkins helps leaders at every level understand how they can transform their output and unlock their true potential.
by Alan Watkins (Author)

Crowdocracy: The End of Politics discusses one of the world’s most debated and critical issues – who decides our futureand how should we be governed?
by Alan Watkins (Author), Iman Stratenus (Author)

Businesses spend billions on innovation with very little to show for their investment or effort. This book challenges some of the ‘ingrained truths’ of innovation and suggests a different approach.
by Alan Watkins (Author), Simon May (Author)

The HR (R)Evolution describes the "Seven Great Waves" of change and explains how each wave impacted business. It’s for leaders who recognise that people issues are the central challenge of our time.
by Alan Watkins (Author), Nick Dalton (Author)

Today's leaders need to change radically to meet the challenge of complex organizations. This requires a step-change in development in three fundamental dimensions: how you do things, who you are, and how you relate to other people.
by Alan Watkins (Author)

Spiral Dynamics (SD) is a model of the evolutionary development of individuals, organizations, and societies. It was initially developed by Don Edward Beck and Christopher Cowan based on the emergent cyclical theory of Clare W. Graves,
Don Edward Beck

Spiral Dynamics in Action explores the evolution of modern business, and provides a model for moving forward amidst ever-increasing complexity and change.
by Don Edward Beck (Author), Teddy Hebo Larsen (Author), Sergey Solonin (Author), Dr. Rica Viljoen (Author), Thomas Q. Johns (Author)

Business success depends on the ability to build trust. Trusted leaders inspire followers, grow companies, revenues, and futures. Sadly, deceit has infected business and become widespread.
by Alan Watkins (Author), Simon Jones (Author)

A provocative examination of how the great religious traditions can remain relevant in modern times by incorporating scientific truths learned about human nature over the last century.
by Ken Wilber (Author)

An edifying view of Buddhism from one of today's leading philosophers: a look at its history and foundational teachings, how it fits into modern society, and how it (and other world religions) will evolve.
by Ken Wilber (Author)

A provocative and balanced examination of our current social and political situation -- by a cutting-edge philosopher of our times.
by Ken Wilber (Author)

Wilber traces human development from infancy into adulthood and beyond, into those states described by mystics and spiritual adepts.
by Ken Wilber (Author)

A leader in transpersonal psychology presents the first truly integrative model of spiritual consciousness and Western developmental psychology
by Ken Wilber (Author)

A concise, comprehensive overview of the "M Theory" and its application in today's world, by a renowned American philosopher
by Ken Wilber (Author)

Ken Wilber explores the ways science, which seeks truth, and religion, which seeks meaning, might be reconciled to further human happiness.
by Ken Wilber (Author)

This masterfully crafted book interweaves conversations between Campbell and some of the people he inspired
by Joseph Campbell (Author)

Arguing that mature masculinity is not abusive or domineering, Moore and Gillette provide a Jungian introduction to the psychological foundations of a mature, authentic, and revitalized masculinity.
by Moore (Author), Robert (Author), Gillette (Author), Douglas (Author)

In most organizations nearly everyone is doing a second job no one is paying them for--namely, covering their weaknesses, trying to look their best, and managing other people's impressions of them.
by Robert Kegan (Author), Lisa Laskow Lahey (Author), Matthew L Miller (Author), Andy Fleming (Author), Deborah Helsing (Author)

Using ancient self-care techniques rediscovered by Herbert Benson, M.D., a pioneer in mind/body medicine for health and wellness, you can relieve your stress, anxiety, and depression
by MD Herbert Benson (Author), Miriam Z Klipper (Author)

ecisions taken by a large group, even if the individuals within the group aren't smart, are always better than decisions made by small numbers of 'experts'.
by James Surowiecki (Author)

This book asks why it is that the things we value most – from the environment to frontline workers to keeping children well fed and educated – are so often neglected by the market.
by Mark Carney (Author)

Margaret Heffernan shows in this eye-opening look at competition, that it regularly produces just what we don't want: rising levels of fraud, cheating, stress, inequality and political stalemate.
by Margaret Heffernan (Author)

This practical guide offers an approach to organizational change based on the possibility of a more desirable future, experience with the whole system, and activities that signal ""something different is happening this time."
by David L. Cooperrider (Author), Diana Whitney (Author)

Upswing is Robert Putnam's brilliant analysis of economic, social, cultural and political trends, showing how America went from an individualistic ‘I’ society to a more communitarian ‘We’ society and back again
by Robert D Putnam (Author), Shaylyn Romney Garrett (Author)

If machine brains one day come to surpass human brains in general intelligence, then this new superintelligence could become very powerful.
by Nick Bostrom (Author)
NOW AVAILABLE: The recording & podcast
You can find the full transcript of the video at the bottom. Please note it is automatically generated and hence will contain spelling mistakes.

Keywords: philosophy, psychology, positive psychology, SDT, significance, benevolence, self-realisation, eudaimonia, meaning of life, meaningfulness, meaningful work, relational ontology, pragmatism, happiness, well-being, caring connections
Connecting the interview with other dialogues

Wonderful Life. Insights on Finding a Meaningful Existence.
by Frank Martela

The Meaning of Life. A Reader.
Edited by E.D. Klemke and Steven M. Cahn

Beyond Realism and Antirealism: John Dewey and the Neopragmatists.
by David L. Hildebrand

The Social Construction of Reality.
by J.R. Searle

Man's Search for Meaning
by Viktor E. Frankl

Dialogues of Plato

The Morality of Happiness
by Julia Annas

Systems Intelligence – A New Lens on Human Engagement and Action
edited by Raimo P. Hämäläinen and Esa Saarinen

Narcissus and Goldmund is contrasting the careers of two friends, one of whom goes on the road, tangled in the extremes of life, the other staying in the monastery and struggling to lead a life of spiritual denial.
by Hermann Hesse (Author)

Every weekend, in basements and parking lots across the country, young men with good white-collar jobs and absent fathers take off their shoes and shirts and fight each other barehanded for as long as they have to.
by Chuck Palahniuk (Author)

Willpower - 12 Tools For Doing The Right Thing
by Frank Martela

Escape from Freedom
by Erich Fromm

The Best Bits from Leaders for Humanity with Frank Martela - Re-enchanting our Organisations: Making Work Meaningful
In our interview, we discuss the notion of morality in the context of John Dewey’s pragmatism, as well as similarities and differences between (psychological) self-determination theory and (philosophical) virtue ethics. We review how organisations can establish “caring connections” and “meaningfulness” at work, examine critical blockers on the way to becoming more self-managing organisations, and explore the relevance of emotions and systems intelligence on the journey.
Join our premiere!
Our YouTube premiere is coming up soon!

Keywords: Positive organisational scholarship, compassion, high quality interactions, constructionism, positive leadership, thriving, courage, identity and identification, job crafting
Jane Dutton
Monica Worline

Awakening Compassion at Work
by Monica C. Worline and Jane E. Dutton

Energize Your Workplace
by Jane Dutton

How to be a positive leader
by Jane E. Dutton and Gretchen M. Spreitzer

Positive Organizational Scholarship. Foundations of a New Discipline
Edited by Kim S. Cameron, Jane E. Dutton, and Robert E. Quinn

The Oxford Handbook of Positive Organizational Scholarship
Edited by Kim Cameron and Gretchen Spreitzer

Emotion in Organizations
by Stephen Fineman

Relational Being
by Kenneth J. Gergen

Homo Ludens
by Johan Huizinga

Deep Change: Discovering the Leader Within
by Robert E. Quinn

Tales of The Filed. On Writing Ethnography
by John van Maanen

The Practice Turn in Contemporary Theory
Edited by Theodore R. Schatzki, Karin Knorr Cetina, and Eike von Savigny

Metaphysics as a Guide to Morals
by Iris Murdoch
Postscriptum & Licenses
Transcripts have been created with Otter.ai.
All website content is currently DRAFT: Please share any feedback and/or flag any errors via the content form. Important: All rights related to images or content created by others that are hosted on this site remain with their respective authors. In case of any undue usage please get in touch. © 2021 All rights related to proprietary content reserved